5x08 LaFleur: Ginger Ale Talk

We’re trying out a new format for the ginger ale talks. Today we’re going to break it out visually by topics similar to our previous “Friday Morning Extras” post. Here goes:

Sawyer is the new Jack, Miles is the new Sawyer?

SUSAN: So, I can’t help thinking that Sawyer has become the leader in the way Jack used to be and Miles has become his Sawyer. Which I think has been done purposefully.
RACHEL: I think so too. Sawyer seemed really at home in the Dharma community and really confident as a leader
SUSAN: I’m wondering if that’s how it was SUPPOSED to happen. If Sawyer was meant to be the leader all along but was derailed. Sor tof the way Widmore may have been meant to be the leader, but Ben stepped in.
RACHEL: I think that’s possible. It was always Jack (with Kate by his side) leading the pack. Now it’s Sawyer and Juliet - who are, by far, better leaders and a better couple!
SUSAN: Yes! Omg they are SO cute - when they exchanged I love yous, I had an uncontrollable AWW.
RACHEL: I know! And the whole, having each other’s back was so sweet too. You just know that Jack and Kate are going to make a mess of things now.
SUSAN: Yes. Idiots.

Fertility and pregnancy issues on the Island
RACHEL: Would this be a good time to switch topics? Because of speaking of Juliet - she was able to finally deliver a baby successfully. I think it’s also important to note what that intern said - how babies are usually delivered on the mainland. Why is that? and where exactly is mainland? And that also implies that at least when the Dharma Initiative was “in charge”, people freely left and came back to the island.
SUSAN: Yes, it seemed like they were free to use the sub and Horace said the sub took them to Tahiti and then they could go from there.
RACHEL: I thought that Horace said that the sub could take them to Tahiti (since they had mentioned being from there). Like if that’s where they needed to be. But that wasn’t necessarily their normal mainland stop.
SUSAN: OH - damn, now I need to rewatch.
RACHEL: I’m starting to think that the having babies problem is triggered by Ben, starting when he takes over the Dharma Initiative. And because of the way he took over (killing all those people) - this is the punishment.
SUSAN: Yes, the purge. Or the Hostiles can’t bear children.
RACHEL: Maybe they (the Hostiles) can’t bear children because they “never age” - or at least Alpert doesn’t seem to.
SUSAN: Yes, it would make sense.
RACHEL: Again .. I feel like we’re onto something here.
SUSAN: So maybe the Hostiles are being punished for something. Remember, awhile back, Dharma said it was trying to save the world from ending. So, if the Hostiles don’t like Dharma, and work against it.. that implies they WANT the world to end right?
RACHEL: Right, it does seem like the actions of these two groups affect not just the island but the world. What you’re saying goes along with another point made 2 seasons ago. Remember when Desmond first met Eloise Hawking? She told him that if he didn’t turn the failsafe key, then “everyone of us will die”. And the writers confirmed that by “everyone of us” she meant, everyone in the world.
SUSAN: So the question is, who is REALLY keeping us from dying?
RACHEL: Yes - maybe that person will end up being John Locke
SUSAN: If the Hostiles are trying to make the world end, maybe thats why they can’t have kids. Because they are working towards the end of the world. So kids would be sort of a moot point anyway…
RACHEL: True - but what does the world ending mean to them? That everyone outside the island AND not a Hostile are gone? Or like the whole planet blows up or something. Do they want to start the world fresh? Like Noah’s Ark style and they’re the only survivors? I could actually see their objective being the latter. Cause why would they want to end along with the rest of the world. Seems like they want to be in control.
SUSAN: Interesting. I like where you’re going with this. So Alpert is a Noah of sorts.
RACHEL: Exactly - but possibly evil.
SUSAN: I love how everything with this show ends with “but possibly evil”
RACHEL: I know! But that’s what makes it so good - so many different shades of grey and different possibilities in general.

Horace Goodspeed
RACHEL: New topic?
SUSAN: Horace Goodspeed!
RACHEL: Good choice! What are your thoughts?
SUSAN: Horace, obviously Egyptian God. Goodspeed, Biblical scholar. But we saw him very long ago helping Ben be brought into this world and getting his dad into Dharma. But where is Horace’s wife (Olivia) from the 60s? Did she die during childbirth? And who hired Horace? Is there something larger at play?
RACHEL: I’m thinking Horace’s wife from 60s either died OR maybe Saywer wasn’t supposed to save Amy therefore changing events. But if that changes events, who helps Ben’s mother give birth? Because unless Horace is there, Ben would technically never make it to the island. Though there is always course correcting.
SUSAN: But Ben was born in the 60s, before Sawyer saved Amy.
RACHEL: Oh right! What do you think happened to her? Interesting, according to Lostpedia: “Olivia’s last name has not been revealed within the show, however, she was listed as Olivia Goodspeed on ABC’s Lost website and it is unclear whether they are married or related by blood.”
SUSAN: I remember them as being a clear couple but maybe that’s the way I want to remember it, lol.
RACHEL: I remember them as a couple too. But maybe we were just meant to assume that. Also, we’ve seen Horace Goodspeed semi-recently. We also saw his “spirit” help Locke find Jacob’s cabin. He was the one who built it. He said he built it for himself and his wife (Amy?).
SUSAN: That’s right. Could Horace have named his son Jacob?
RACHEL: See I was starting to think Horace could be Jacob .. but that’s even better! Because they conveniently left out the name of their baby.
SUSAN: Yes, I was waiiiiting. Jacob would be perfect.
RACHEL: Same here. The baby has to be one of the characters we already know of. And it would explain the cabin as well because his father built it.
SUSAN: I like this. So, Horace (may) be the guy we saw in the cabin and he’s certainly connected to the cabin. So far, the people we’ve seen in the cabin (Christian and Claire) have been of the same bloodline. What if Horace is related to Jack somehow.
RACHEL: That’s true, he could be.

Random Topics
SUSAN:

It is unclear whether the Canaanites practiced human sacrifice by sacrificing their children, burning them alive, possibly to the god Moloch. A few historical accounts written around the time they were flourishing make this claim, but others don’t.

As there does not appear to be a Canaanite god named Moloch, this could be a misspelling of Melqart; of Milcom, a god of the Ammonites; of the Assyro-Babylonian “Malik”, or the Palmyran Malach-bel. Moloch is also identified with Baal Hammon in Carthaginian religion.

The main evidence for human sacrifice, other than claims of historians of the time, is the discovery of the graves of many children near certain Punic religious sites in North Africa, such as Carthage. Opponents to the claim of Canaanite human sacrifice suggest that these children died naturally, and point to the few undeveloped foetuses amongst the other dead as evidence for this.

A little off topic - but that’s what we do.
RACHEL: Haha yes it is. You think their fertility issues are tied to that?
SUSAN: Maybe? Involuntary sacrifice of children like Passover. Oh I just had another thought. I’m sorry I’m totally unable to stick to any cohesiveness today. 1979 - was Ben quoting that as the day Charolette was born because of her file? Because.. if that’s so, maybe she uses 1979, because that’s when she went to the mainland when she was, say, 9. Which.. would make her almost 40. So maybe she just looks really young for her age.
RACHEL: True, but that might have to do with the island. Because Widmore told Locke that he had been the leader for 40 years? But we saw him in the 1940s as a 17 and then again with Locke in 2008? I don’t think he’s in his 70s. Maybe being on the island slows down your aging process because of the time difference..?
SUSAN: Hmmm maybe.

“She moved on and we stayed”
SUSAN: What did Faraday mean when he said Charlotte moved on and the rest of them stayed. Is her body drifting through time? When people die, we say they’ve “moved on” but he said it in the sense that her body moved on. So her body continues to time jump? And wasn’t he touching her? Things they’ve been touching have gotten carried through.
RACHEL: Maybe they can carry inanimate objects through different times, but not people. Like once you’ve died in a certain time, you’re stuck there? And when he said “moved on” I took it as - moved onto to another life (ie. afterlife). But he was clearly out of it - so he could’ve meant a number of things. He also seemed to be altering the time travel rules again. Like now that they’re stuck in a single time and not jumping - it doesn’t matter what they do?
SUSAN: Well I think he’s sticking with what he was saying before. He’s just more depressed about it. He’s saying that it happened as it did and nothing they do will change that. No matter how hard they try.
RACHEL: That’s true. Do you think Charlotte’s body is still jumping through time?
SUSAN: I’m kind of confused about that one because.. I’m still on our theory that if a person has a physical holder for their spirit, they still exist. So if she lost her physical place card, she’s now been wiped from all existence.
RACHEL: Right .. but now Faraday is seemingly in the same time period as child Charlotte. What if he’ll be able to alter things? What if she wasn’t supposed to die and him trying to stop that from happening is course correction?
SUSAN: Course correction confuses me because we keep hearing you can’t change how things happened but then you can. I’m lost.

Dynamite, the Black Rock & Jacob’s Cabin
RACHEL: Next topic? Horace having dynamite and where did he get it from?
SUSAN: His response about the black rock was interesting. He said “I can’t say that I have” (heard of it).
RACHEL: Yes! When I saw the dynamite, I immediately thought of the Black Rock.
SUSAN: So.. is Horace a victim of smokey and thereby connected to the black rock?
RACHEL: Victim of smokey as in “sick”? He doesn’t seem to be displaying any violent tendencies like Rousseau’s crew did. He just got drunk so I’m not sure if I think he’s a victim. I do think he does know more about that Black Rock than he’s letting on to Sawyer. So, is Horace the Dharma leader?
SUSAN: We were meant to assume that right?
RACHEL: I think so. I just thought of something, I’m not sure if it’s relevant though. I always assumed Jacob to be one of the Others or Hostiles. Because it seems like Ben and Alpert carry out his orders. But if Horace is Dharma and he built Jacob’s cabin..?
SUSAN: Or Jacob took it from him since Horace was killed by the Hostiles in the purge. But I do think he’s the “eye” we saw and maybe, the one who said “help me” to Locke. Because technically we don’t know WHO said it. Just that Locke heard it.
RACHEL: Yes! I think so too. Because you’ve seen the screen cap of Jacob right? It’s not clear, just a shadow. But you can see the person has sorta longish wavy hair like Horace’s.
SUSAN: Yes, so Horace may be a prisoner in the cabin. I think I’m on to something. LIKE if the cabin is the physical placeholder for Horace’s spirit then maybe the spirit becomes a prisoner in the placeholder until it can break free, through a spiritual trial or some such. Kind of like the Jewish view that the son of God is still coming and until then people who have died are waiting to get into heaven. So they’re kind of.. trapped in their bodies. Only Horace is trapped in the cabin.
RACHEL: I like where you’re going with that. It would certainly explain why that person in the cabin said “help me” to Locke. Maybe Locke is really the leader they’ve been waiting for. Because if Jacob is as all powerful as we’ve been led to believe, why he ask for help. He just seems to give orders (if Christian is really speaking for him).
SUSAN: Yes.

Faraday
RACHEL: Where is Faraday three years later?
SUSAN: Um hopefully not dead because I’m secretly in love with him. Don’t tell Ray.
RACHEL: It’ll be our little secret.
SUSAN: lol - He could be in the mines but it’s VERY strange no one seemed to as much as mention him.
RACHEL: I’m thinking that’s where he is and maybe he’s kind of secluded himself from the rest of the group.
SUSAN: Maybe he’s doing his best not to do what he did before. Or was going to do..
RACHEL: That’s true. But he’s probably going to do it anyway. You know what else, remember how he has that notebook full of information. I wonder if a lot of that information came from that period of being a part of Dharma. Maybe they were always supposed to go to that time period.
SUSAN: but if he has a notebook like that, doesn’t he know he’s been there? Or.. will.. be..
RACHEL: That’s true.

Final Comments
SUSAN: What topics do we have left?
RACHEL: (1) Are we really supposed to believe Rose, Bernard, and the rest are just.. gone? (2) How they going to work into their own past, are they going to be part of the group Ben kills? And (3) Was Alpert “waiting” for Locke because he had met Locke before and Sawyer had mentioned him?
SUSAN: Where in the hell is everyone else that stayed on the island. I don’t like the assumption made by the writers that, if we don’t see them, we’ll just sort of forget they exist.
RACHEL: Exactly! They need to address that, especially Rose and Bernard
SUSAN: YES - they were so cute! Then I think the last two topics actually fit together. Maybe they created the “religion” that makes Locke a leader. i.e. Locke is deemed important in the future because he went to the past already being told he was important and therefore told others he was important creating this neverending circle.
RACHEL: Yes, I can definitely see that. But do you think they’ll be a part of the group that Ben (and Alpert) purges? Somehow I don’t see John allowing that to happen to the Oceanic 6 + other Losties. Because ultimately, it seems like Alpert will follow Locke’s orders rather than Ben. Maybe Locke has the power to stop that purge from happening completely.
SUSAN: Remember when the purge happened and Alpert kept telling Ben, “it’s not time”? What was he waiting for?
RACHEL: I don’t think it was regarding the purge. It was regarding Ben’s time to join them. Because he first met Alpert as a kid and officially joined as leader much later.
SUSAN: But what if the actual reason for the purge hasn’t happened yet. Like.. Alpert was waiting for something specific or someone specific.
RACHEL: Someone like Locke?
SUSAN: You know what else and it isn’t at all on topic but it just occurred to me. Locke was dead, reincarnated when he got to the island. Christian was dead, and his coffin was empty when Jack opened it. So maybe Locke and Christian are the same type of being now, whatever that may be.
RACHEL: That’s true! But Locke seems like himself. Whereas with Christian, you get this other-worldly vibe from him. You just know he’s speaking on behalf of someone.
SUSAN: Yeah.. maybe we’ll get more on that. I think we got through everything? It’s so sad no Lost next week.
RACHEL: I know! we should have a free for all theories post or something
SUSAN: YES! Genius!

Free for all theories post coming next week in place of our regular ginger ale talk!

Pictures courtesy of: Lost-Media.com