5x15 Follow the Leader: Ginger Ale Talk

Richard Alpert let-down, Destiny and Jacob

SUSAN: Happy Lost discussion day! I have to admit, right away, I thought it was a meh episode.
RACHEL: Really? I thought it was good. Granted, not as many jaw-dropping moments but I think it’s because we’re being set up for the season finale next week.
SUSAN: Yeah, I guess the set up episodes never go well with me, I’m always waiting for something more. But I felt let down because they were hinting at giving us some good Richard Alpert background and then.. didn’t.
RACHEL: Agreed. I wanted to hear him say something or get some sort of reveal on his character. But I think the only semi-reveal we got was that he doesn’t know as much about the island as we previously thought.
SUSAN: Exactly, which I felt sad about, because his character has been a little reduced then.
RACHEL: It sort of got me thinking though. You know how this whole time we were under the impression that someone (ie. Jacob) told Richard who the next leader should be? Namely Locke. But now it seems that Locke set himself up to be the leader. He’s the one who told Richard in the past that he’s their future leader, he told him what hospital to find him at when he’s born, and he told Richard to tell Past-Locke to die and bring back everyone. Locke pretty much created his.. life? Timeline?
SUSAN: I think we’ve theorized this before and yes, I agree, I think they’re creating their own futures right now.
RACHEL: I think so too. But does that mean they’re in this time loop until something different happens?
SUSAN: Well.. is it a loop? I mean, their individual timelines are still running. They will age and die.
RACHEL: I guess I’m just questioning if it’s a loop because we keep seeing things happen again. That Richard/Locke scene, Jack telling Eloise she can change things and her shooting her son would never happen even though it’s already happen twice (?) before.
SUSAN: I guess what I mean to say is no one is getting stuck in the loop. Everyone is continuing their timeline as relative to their own life. It’s not like groundhog day, where the guy repeats the same day over and over. Each person experiences the event only once in their own timeline. Why do you think Richard is so confused about time travel? That really got me about last night’s episode. At this point he’s seen time travelers come and go a couple times, and he’s been on the island for a loooong time. Is he just pretending not to know anything?
RACHEL: He seems to look at the island from this mystical standpoint almost. There’s something very ancient about Richard. Whereas the Dharma Initiative was studying the island from a scientific point of view and trying to harness the energy somehow. Maybe Richard knows the island is special but doesn’t know the extent of it because he/the Others just follow Jacob.
SUSAN: Wouldn’t he have learned something in all the time he’s been following Jacob? I mean, maybe he doesn’t know everything in 1977, but he was STILL acting clueless in 2007.
RACHEL: Do you think he’s just acting clueless?
SUSAN: I haven’t decided. I’m still not convinced he’s human, of course.
RACHEL: There was something about the way Ben said for a very very long time and that he’s kind of an adviser. What does that all mean. Can Richard even see Jacob?
SUSAN: I’m under the impression no one has ever seen Jacob.
RACHEL: Which makes you wonder - why do they all follow him?

Who are the Hostiles?
SUSAN: I’m not sure we’ve ever addressed this but who, exactly, are the Hostiles? I mean, I know later they recruit people, like Juliet. But who are the people living in those tents? Where do they come from? Are they able to leave the island before having access to the Dharma camp and sub?
RACHEL: It doesn’t seem like it. The Hostiles seem to have been born and raised on the island. But aside from that, I’ve got nothing.
SUSAN: Which means Eloise and Widmore were born on the island? Maybe we’ve got this whole “What lies in the shadow…” group wrong. Maybe they are the rightful descendants, maybe they belong on the island. Sort of a religious claim on territory.
RACHEL: So a group that’s completely new and separate from the Hostiles, Losties and Dharma?
SUSAN: Um, well I guess no, because they’d descend from the Hostiles. Okay wait.. I was on to something, I’m gonna figure this out. I think, what I’m picturing is Native American vs. settlers style. So the Hostiles are like the Native Americans, and they have a lifestyle that preserves their habitat. Then Dharma comes in and settles the area and there is a war. But, like with most wars, it causes some mingling of the cultures and destruction of old ways of doing things. The natives take on a leader from a different culture. Some people, the Purists, take offense and leave (maybe the statue people?) and some stay (the Hostiles/fake Dharma). So the Purists still hope for a return to their natural culture, so they raise their children to understand and follow their belief system, so they may one day return to the island and fight the war their parents no longer can. A little too far out there huh?
RACHEL: Actually - I was thinking that makes sense haha. Because all these people who want the island, it’s this obsessive need to be there and/or own it. Why wouldn’t these Purists raise their children to later take it back?

Jacob vs. the Island vs. Smokey
SUSAN: What I still can’t figure out is how Jacob fits into it, if at all.
RACHEL: Yes! I don’t know about you but I thought that Jacob and the island were synonymous. But now they seem separate. Like the “island” is communicating to John what it wants and that seems to include killing Jacob.
SUSAN: Which also begs the question, whose side is Smokey on? Because Smokey told Ben to follow Locke, which implies Smokey works for the island. But Christian has also been a manifestation of Smokey and he seems to have a strong association with Jacob.
RACHEL: Unless.. Jacob isn’t real? Maybe Locke is going to kill the illusion of him, not physically kill him.
SUSAN: I was thinking that too! But then, what is the purpose of the cabin?
RACHEL: It could be just a front - a way to prove that Jacob is real to the non-believers.
SUSAN: But who puts up the front? The cabin has to be Smokey right?
RACHEL: It would seem that way. But does that also mean that Horace never actually built a cabin? Woah I just read an interesting theory. Based on what we just theorized that the island told Locke to kill Jacob - this theory is saying that maybe Jacob does speak for the island and he actually wants Locke to end his life.
SUSAN: oOo because he said “help me.”
RACHEL: Right - so this person is saying, maybe Jacob has been trapped by the island and forced to fulfill a role that he cannot escape from. So the only way out of his “contract” with the island is by dying. Therefore, Locke’s role isn’t to be the next Ben or even leader of the Others - maybe he’s going to be the next Jacob. Like by killing him, he takes his place.
SUSAN: So what does Jacob do then? What is his function on the island that he needs to be replaced?
RACHEL: It seems like Jacob’s function is to speak for the island.
SUSAN: Do you think this could go back to some of the Egyptian lore we studied a while back? Remember when people died their spirits separated from their bodies, they were judged, and if they were deemed worthy the spirit rejoined the body and they were godlike. What if Jacob needs to die in order to be judged and get to a new form. Similar to the way Locke died and came back to life.
RACHEL: Good point, because Ben killed Locke and look at him now.
SUSAN: So Locke has good intentions for his killing, but Ben didn’t. Ben is apparently quite terrified.
RACHEL: But why is he terrified?
SUSAN: Maybe bringing Locke back to life was the island’s way of telling Ben he no longer had a say in anything.
RACHEL: True. Maybe Ben always saw his life and future as being the leader of the Others but now he clearly sees that won’t happen anymore.
SUSAN: oOo - or, what if Ben, from his studies, knows all the Egyptian history we learned? And knows that now Locke maybe be remarkably powerful.
RACHEL: Or that. I think Ben and Alpert can already see that Locke is different and more powerful. So you think that despite the new change in Locke - he’s ultimately a good guy?
SUSAN: Well, my brother was noting the camera shifts (that article we read a couple weeks ago, about the types of shots and what they meant) and the good camera shift (was it left to right? or right to left?) was always on Ben, and the bad camera shift was always on Locke.
RACHEL: Really? That’s interesting.. what if the island is evil?

(Im)possible ending
SUSAN: Could be. I just had a thought. If Faraday’s plan is followed properly, and works, then the Oceanic flight will never crash, and Claire will make it to CA with Aaron. And Kate’s reason for coming to the island was to find Claire. So in her short stint on the 1977 island has she now decided getting Claire back with Aaron is not as important as her own memories? And doesn’t that contradict the motherly, selfless Kate who was presented to us only a few episodes ago? I’m not sure if we’re meant to come away with that but I can’t help thinking she’s a bit selfish here.
RACHEL: I didn’t think of it that way but I agree that she is a bit selfish here (and most of the time). It’s probably because out of everyone, she has the bleakest future if they did land in LA since she’d be on her way to jail.
SUSAN: The more I think about it, the more I think how impossible that ending is. You’d have to have the whole original cast, including Walt. Who, considering how different he looks now, may as well be a 7 ft white man when they film the finale.
RACHEL: LOL, this is a good point.
SUSAN: I kind of feel like they’re not changing anything. I agree with Faraday, the only person that could change things was Desmond. Didn’t he not listen to Eloise, way back?
RACHEL: I think there have been a few times already when Desmond hasn’t listened to Eloise. She said pushing the button was the most important thing he’ll ever do. So he stops pushing it and the hatch blew up. Then she said the island wasn’t done with him and he needed to go back, but he didn’t.
SUSAN: What about when he was buying the ring for Penny?
RACHEL: She said not to but he did anyway, right?
SUSAN: I think so. I can’t remember well enough but I think the very fact that Desmond is with Penny is changing things.
RACHEL: I think so too. I hope he plays a part in the finale somehow.
SUSAN: He has to, right? Or are we done with him.
RACHEL: I don’t think we are.

The start of war
SUSAN: My friend just mentioned all the bloody faces last night. Do you think that was our signal that the war had started?
RACHEL: I don’t think the war that Widmore alluded to has start. But Past-Widmore did ask, why has the Dharma Initiative declared war on them, which I think always happened. Maybe that’s how the incident happens. Like in the middle of their drilling, the Hostiles attack the Dharma Initiative which then throws off their drilling and they drill into something they shouldn’t have.
SUSAN: Definitely. I could see that.

Love is complicated
SUSAN: Hey, btw - where is Jin?
RACHEL: He’s with Hurley and Miles.
SUSAN: Oh right, he had like…two lines last night.
RACHEL: I know! Grrr.
SUSAN: I almost forgot he was there. Has he given up his “Hey everyone, we need to go find my wife” mission?
RACHEL: I don’t think so but he probably needs to concentrate on at least staying alive.
SUSAN: Logic has no place in love!
RACHEL: Speaking of love, did you find Richard’s comment about Eloise and Widmore strange? Because you know how we weren’t 100% sure about Widmore really being the father. I think yesterday confirmed that he was.
SUSAN: But what complicates their love?
RACHEL: I’m thinking power because right now, they’re both the leaders with Alpert as their advisor. I wonder if that’s normal to have 2 leaders at once. Maybe it’s a special case for them since they’re together.

Recreating Past Events
SUSAN: So I had a good Lost thought. Eloise told them to recreate the Oceanic crash as best they could, so they got on a plane and it crash/landed. What if Desmond’s boat was meant to be a recreation of the Black Rock?
RACHEL: That’s possible. Do you think that recreating past occurrences is always the way you get back to the island? I thought that maybe it was just a special case for the Oceanic 6.
SUSAN: oOo, that’s a good thought. Maybe it’s a way of edging in on the time loop.
RACHEL: You know how Richard Alpert said he watched the Losties die in 1977. What did you think of that? Think it’s true or that he’s lying.
SUSAN: I think the bomb blows and he assumes death. Also I’m convinced Kate must die this season, maybe that’s wishful thinking.
RACHEL: Well supposedly there’s a major character death coming.
SUSAN: I think they’ve built it so one of the girls has to go and I want to believe it’s Kate. SO badly. Although it would be ironic and more Lost-ish if it were Juliet. I’m starting to think that’s true Lost style. She’d do anything to get off the island, stays behind, gets her shot FINALLY but dies. Kate dying would be…in a way…getting what she wants, because she doesn’t want to go back and Losties NEVER get what they want.
RACHEL: You know, the more I think about it.. the more it does seem like it would be Juliet.

Pictures courtesy of: Lost-Media.com