5x11 Whatever Happened, Happened: Ginger Ale Talk

Hurley & Miles Time Traveling Theories

SUSAN: I felt like Hurley and Miles’ talk was a little wink to us.
RACHEL: I agree, I definitely think it was a wink to the fans and they represented two sides that are probably most debated with [Lost’s] time traveling.
SUSAN: What I didn’t like was how they came up with a way for Ben not to remember. To me that was the same sortof slap-in-the-face moment you get when you watch a finale of a show and then find out it was all a dream.
RACHEL: I was just going to mention that. ‘Cause they basically answered Hurley’s question at the end during that scene with Alpert. But you know, I’m not sure that he forgets everything. I think he forgets the events related to the shooting. So he’ll remember Jack, Kate, Sayid, etc. But maybe he just won’t remember that Sayid shot him?
SUSAN: But that was crucial. That was why he was so dead set on Sayid being a killer.
RACHEL: True.. or maybe he just doesn’t remember how he was healed.
SUSAN: Well Richard said he won’t remember any of this.
RACHEL: What’s “any of this”?
SUSAN: There’s the rub.
RACHEL: I agree with you, I think Ben knowing Sayid shot him is crucial. So I’m hoping “any of this” refers to his actual healing and being taken into that temple.
SUSAN: That would certainly make me happier. Otherwise I’m honestly going to lose a bit of respect for Lost because it comes across as a “clever” way to give themselves license to throw in whatever they like without consequences.
RACHEL: Agreed. Getting back to their debate though, listening to the characters talk about it - I think I am inclined to believe what Miles said. That this already happened and was supposed to happen this way. But they’re just experiencing it for the first time.
SUSAN: I agree, I think we’ve been working on that principle for awhile and Miles was the writers’ way of making sure everyone was on board.

The “new” Jack
RACHEL: Right, which means Jack was never supposed to help Juliet save Ben. And that brings us to our next topic I think. The “new” Jack.
SUSAN: I think this is where we knew he was going. Jack never had his transformative moment. His issues on the mainland were always that he had to fix things, and on the island “old” Jack just fixed things.
RACHEL: Exactly. Listening to him talk kind of made me think of old Sawyer and Locke too. He was being a little selfish, sitting back AND waiting for the island to give him a sign of his destiny. I thought what he said to Kate was interesting too. That maybe the island is wants to fix things and he was just getting in the way.
SUSAN: Yes! He believes now. That would mean we’d need to go back and pinpoint every spot in which he messed with the island.
RACHEL: But did he really “mess with the island”? On one hand, you have Miles saying that everything is happening the way it’s supposed to. But then as with the case with Alex (and what we hear Ben say in the promo for next week), it is possible to break the rules.
SUSAN: Is it possible they were supposed to break the rules?
RACHEL: That is possible. But then they aren’t breaking the rules at all. And this is all predetermined. And who is determining all this? The island? And for what reason?
SUSAN: Can’t it be predetermined to break the rules?
RACHEL: True. I’m still confused about “the rules” (and plenty of other things, lol). But that phrase is used to a lot and I guess I’m not sure what it refers to. Time traveling rules, the island’s rule, etc.
SUSAN: I’m of the belief that Faraday’s Rules and Ben’s Rules are different and I’m wondering if Ben’s rules don’t apply until you visit the temple. Because maybe it’s a bit like signing your soul to the devil, you know? So… he gives you your life back, but in return there are certain things you have to do, or follow and if you don’t you have to be judged (see next week).

“He’ll always be one of us.”
RACHEL: I agree, I think their rules are different. It does seem like entering the temple is like signing your soul to the devil. Everyone who enters seems to come out different.
SUSAN: Yes, especially noting the loss of innocence. We’ve seen the “different” people (Rousseau’s mates) react seemingly without a conscience. Is the implication then, that all the Others have undergone this “procedure”? Because Richard mentioned Ben would always be “one of us”.
RACHEL: I think that is the implication. But I just thought of something. We saw that they all (especially Richard) wanted Locke to be their leader. Meaning the leader of the Others. But there was no mention of needing to undergo a procedure (at least not yet). Also, I got the impression that the procedure and/or temple doesn’t affect Richard.
SUSAN: Of course not, since Richard is Smokey after all.
RACHEL: That did cross my mind. That maybe he is Smokey or controlling it. Is that’s why he’s not the leader of the Others? But at the same time, doesn’t have to answer to whoever the current leader is.

Ellie & Charlies
SUSAN: I think so. I think it’s going to go back to a lot of our Egypt research. I just had a thought though as I was reading Jensen’s recap. He referred to the temple as a sort of tree of knowledge. So, expanding on that - if the temple is the tree of knowledge, and Ellie and Charles found it, and “plucked” from it, they would be banned from the Eden-like island making them Adam and Eve. Which harkens to the name of a certain episode from Season One.
RACHEL: And they are (seemingly) banned from the island now. Widore claims to have been exiled from Ben. And despite Eloise Hawking (if that is Ellie) having all this knowledge about getting back to the island, she hasn’t gone back. Maybe they’re both exiled.
SUSAN: Exactly. But, in true tree of knowledge filled form, they are constantly trying to return. God inflicted labor pain on women and the island has been no stranger to pregnancy issues.
RACHEL: So you think the island inflicted that upon everyone on the island? And also, we did see the skeletons of Adam and Eve. And if they are Widmore & Ellie .. then either they did find a way to get back to the island. Or maybe more rules get broken along the way. Cause those skeletons were old according to Jack.
SUSAN: Maybe the right thing for them to do, according to the rules, is to be returned to the island after exile and be judged. And they are judged to be in the wrong so they die holding each other? OH! (Now I’m going through our past posts.) Remember when Locke wouldn’t shoot young Widmore because he was one of his “people”? Ben has now been firmly planted as one of them which means, by absolute logic, that Ben is one of Locke’s people. Also, what if the temple bestows absolute knowledge of the future with the rule that you cannot change that future? Which is why Ellie stepped in to set Desmond on course because she saw he might veer from his set future.
RACHEL: OH! I like that. And since Ben broke the rules, now he’ll be judged (as he said in the promo). By the way, the writers have described Eloise as being a “temporal policeman”. So who has this knowledge of the future? Widmore, Eloise, Ben?
SUSAN: And presumably Alpert/Smokey.
RACHEL: But does he? Because if he had all that knowledge and I would presume that he’d know first (since he’s the “oldest”), then wouldn’t he have known who Locke was when they were time jumping? Who Sawyer is? Who Kate is?
SUSAN: Well, if we’re right about the rules then he could be playing dumb in an effort to inflict as little damage as possible on the timeline. Remeber our Jack as Jacob theory? It’s possible we’ve seen the first bits of his conversion with his newfound faith in the island and maybe when Locke heard “help me”, it wasn’t “help me get out of here”. It was “help me, as I am in your timeline, become who I was meant to be”. Okay your turn for a theory.
RACHEL: Actually I just had a thought which combines two things were talking about earlier. Regarding what Alpert said about healing Ben. Maybe Ben really won’t remember anything that happened, including Sayid shooting him. FOR NOW. Because we also said that maybe Eloise, Widmore and Ben all know what the future is. And the one thing that they have in common is that at some point they’re all leaders of the Others. So maybe when they became Leaders and got that knowledge of the future from the temple that we compared to the “tree of knowledge” .. maybe Ben gets his memory back of those events.
SUSAN: Hmm so you’re theory is different than mine. Because you’re assuming Ben doesn’t get any knowledge on this visit.
RACHEL: I don’t know if it’s my theory per se. It’s just a thought I’m putting out there in case Alpert really did mean that all of his memories would be erased from this event. But I don’t think that he will get any knowledge on this visit to the temple. I think right now he’ll just be healed and maybe have his innocent/soul taken away.
SUSAN: I see it as more of a transfer, absolute knowledge for innocence.

Kate’s decisions
RACHEL: Want to talk about Kate? I was a lil surprised that she told Cassidy the whole truth.
SUSAN: Yeah, she came off as very desperate. I think that was transformative for her. Because she’s become the girl on the show that’s always obsessing over some guy and finally, she had this woman that she could relate to. Especially after her bad situation with her mom. It was the first time (since her brief stint of friendship with Cassidy before) that we saw her really connect with another female character.
RACHEL: I think she also connected with Sun while on the island. But I agree it was different with Cassidy. I think the whole episode in general showed that she’s changed. Her reason for coming back was about Claire, not Sawyer. And she’s turned into this really protective mother. It seemed like that instinct came out when she trying to help save Ben.
SUSAN: Maybe, she’s learned not to be selfish. A bit like Sawyer’s transformation actually. Because he’s now putting Juliet’s desire’s above his own in helping Ben.
RACHEL: Yes, they’ve both grown up while being away from each other.
SUSAN: I hope that’s not a sign.
RACHEL: Like now they’re ready to be together? I hope not!

Closing theories ..
SUSAN: OH, I had an idea as to why Sun didn’t go to 1977. It seems like whenever it was expressed by one of the Losties that someone wasn’t to come back to the island, they didn’t. Like, Locke didn’t want Walt to go back. Claire didn’t want Aaron to go back and Jin didn’t want Sun to go back.
RACHEL: Wow, good point! The other thought I had concerning her not going back was - she wasn’t a part of the events that turned Ben Linus into who he is today.
SUSAN: So then the island would want Ben that way.
RACHEL: Yes? I was reading somewhere how in a way, Ben/the island forced the characters to change or evolve. Jack has become a man of faith, Sawyer turned into a responsible leader, Kate turned into a mature & maternal figure, etc. But Ben would have to be evil Ben in order for that to happen.
SUSAN: Yes, true. You know - we haven’t really speculated as to what happens next season. What if, what we’re watching is the first run through and then, next season, will be the redo [of this current season].
RACHEL: OR if they do redo a season, maybe they’ll redo the first because this season seems to mirror season 2 (more so than season 1). Kind of like, go back to where it all began.
SUSAN: ooo - that would fit with the Matthew Fox knows all.
RACHEL: Just had a random thought. Did you ever see the movie, “The Butterfly Effect”?
SUSAN: Yup, Desmond’s time trippiness reminded me of it.
RACHEL: Right and in the movie, he got nosebleeds too. Because every time he changed something, he would keep the old memories and his brain would get filled with the “new” memories as a result of whatever he tried to fix. I’m not entirely sure where I’m going with this - but if they change things so drastically.. I wonder if they’ll keep the old and new memories. Or does everything get erased and they only retain the new.
SUSAN: I think I’d prefer erased.
RACHEL: I’m not sure what I prefer yet.

Pictures courtesy of: Lost-Media.com