5x07 The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham: Ginger Ale Talk

RACHEL: Official Lost discussion starts now. First topic - Locke / Tunisia / Widmore. So we found out from Widmore that Tunisia is the “exit” point from the Island and that he’s been watching it (which made me wonder if he saw Ben when he exited the Island). And then he tells Locke his side of the “war”. That he used to be the leader but was exiled somehow by Ben. I kind of got the impression that he didn’t know the Island time-traveled until much later (after he was “the leader”) because he was so fascinated by the time difference. 4 days for Locke, 40 or so years for him. And also, why did Ben take the island from Widmore? Does that mean it happened after the Purge and Widmore somehow survived it? But at the same time, we saw Alpert help Ben to become a leader. So does that mean Alpert felt it was Widmore’s time to step down?

SUSAN: I was wondering the same thing about Widmore seeing Ben but I don’t remember seeing cameras when Ben landed. So why would Widmore set them up after Ben arrives? Is this a writing glitch or is there really something to this?

RACHEL: I don’t remember cameras either. Because I was just thinking, he knew Ben wasn’t on the Island since Ben visited him saying he was going to kill Penny. But based on his discussion with Locke, he didn’t seem to know the exact circumstances. That Ben had willing moved the Island and exiled himself. Because if Widmore did have an idea of the circumstances.. maybe that’s why he set up the cameras afterward. Since if Ben left.. then others might follow. Like Locke.

SUSAN: That’s a good theory - he was genuinely looking for Locke.

RACHEL: He seemed to be. But was he looking for Locke to truly help him or to just further his own cause?

SUSAN: Well, that’s the question. Is there good and evil and which is which?

RACHEL: Right. Or maybe both Widmore and Ben are both evil men who will do anything to gain back their status as Leader while John is the only good one and a pawn in their efforts. It seems like they’re both playing him in some way.

SUSAN: Yes. Although - my heart was with Widmore last night. But Ben always confuses me. I mean, he killed Locke but Locke did reincarnate on the island.


RACHEL: Same here, I was on Widmore’s side. But I did read an interesting thought about Ben killing Locke. That maybe in this strange way Ben was trying to save Locke. Since (according Catholic/Christian teachings) committing suicide is a sin and means you won’t go to heaven. I’m not sure if I necessarily buy that theory but it’s an interesting take on it. When I saw the scene, it seemed like as soon as Locke said “Eloise Hawking” Ben just snapped.

SUSAN: Yes, I think Ben was waiting for info on how to get back to the island. But you make a good point, about the suicide. But.. if we’re going by Christian teachings, wouldn’t murder preclude Ben from getting to the island?

RACHEL: It depends. Is the island their “heaven”? But the writers said it wouldn’t be a heaven/hell/purgatory thing. Or maybe the island isn’t done with Ben yet either. So that’s why he needed to go back. Also.. based on what he said about missing Locke, it didn’t seem like he knew that he’d come back to life on the island. Maybe the island is giving Locke a chance to get revenge.

SUSAN: Writers also lie. And yes, I noticed that too. But Eloise knew they needed a body for Christian. So Ben didn’t know he needed a body until Eloise told him and then had to pick him up from the morgue? Or is it just convenient that Eloise said “oh we need a body” and that’s why Ben showed up at the funeral home where Jack was.

RACHEL: I kept waiting for Locke to tell him that Alpert said he had to die. I kinda feel like that’s the case (the latter scenario). Locke was conveniently dead and would probably help Ben to convince the others (namely Jack).


SUSAN: I’m leaning towards giving Ben official bad guy status.

RACHEL: Same here. I think he just wants to be the leader of the Others. BUT then I think, if that’s the case.. why didn’t he just let Locke turn the wheel to begin with.

SUSAN: Although, remember when he [Jack] was asked if Locke was really dead? He gave his funny “I’m not telling you the whole truth” face and avoided answering altogether.

RACHEL: That’s true, I forgot about that. Then maybe he did know Locke would come back to life on the island. But maybe he didn’t know that at the time (when he killed Locke). Maybe he found out later from Eloise. If he did see in fact see Eloise afterward.

SUSAN: Something is fuzzy here. It could be, and I’m just throwing this out there, that Ben is in fact a good guy who intended to sacrifice himself. And he’s going to miss Locke, because he knows he will not be permitted to live long on the island after returning.

RACHEL: That’s true! I mean once it gets out that Ben killed Locke .. I doubt any of them will trust him again. Did you notice how both Ben and Widmore said the exact same things to Locke at the beginning and end of the episode? They both tell Locke that he’s special and important to the survival of the island. They’ve both been watching the Oceanic 6 to “protect them”. They both claim to be doing what’s best for the island.


SUSAN: Yes. That makes sense because they’re both trying to get what they want. The question is, who wants good things or are they both selfish bastards.

RACHEL: I kind of want to say they’re both selfish bastards. That John being important to the island is actually true and they’re each exploiting that fact because they both want gain control of the island.

SUSAN: But Jacob seems to favor Ben and isn’t Jacob basically the island?

RACHEL: Does he favor Ben? If he did, wouldn’t Ben still be the leader. And if Christian is Jacob or speaking for Jacob, he did say that listening to Ben is never a good idea.

SUSAN: True, I guess we never heard Jacob tell Ben to move the island. So we don’t know what he actually said. I think it would make sense if Ben was more removable too because he wasn’t written as a regular character originally. So if he weren’t the true leader, it would make more sense. Also (somewhat on point) I looked up Tunisia last night and it was the sit of a major battle in WWII in 1943. Apparently it was a huge axis/allies point and the allies had to retreat before ultimately taking the area. It’s often overshadowed by Stalingrad but it is noted as the first battle to truly unite America, England, and France. I think it might be a hint towards how WWII mixes with the storyline. If the exit is in Tunisia then the allies could have troops on the island that were shuffled in through the exit or some such. I haven’t totally worked through the details of this theory yet but I think its very important that Tunisia was such a big point in the war in 1943 and then we started using nuclear weaponry in 1945. That’s big because that’s when we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 1943 is (I think) when America entered WWII.


RACHEL: Wait 1943? That’s around when Widmore was there - in 1945. And there was that hydrogen bomb on the island brought by troops that somehow found it [it being the island].

SUSAN: Maybe those troops were set up there in 1943. Maybe the island is in fact a war outpost which would explain the security guard smokey. In fact, tunisia has a long history of being central in wars. Like with Carthage. So maybe its been a war outpost in different ways for centuries.

RACHEL: True. And they (the troops) just never realized the full capabilities of the island (like time travel)? Or you think it was chosen precisely for that reason?

SUSAN: Well, I’m not sure they understood how to harness it but I think they understood the magnetic pull. The way Rose and Bernard went to that place in Australia that was “special.” You know, since we’re on this war thing. Charlotte spoke Korean and that was TOTALLY unexplained. But there was the Korean War.

RACHEL: I know! I hope they explain that eventually. But that’s a good point.. and Ben speaks/understands another language. When he “exited” he spoke to those men in .. Arabic?

SUSAN: Farsi maybe? Let me look up Tunisian languages.

“Arabic is Tunisia’s official language. However, as is the case in the rest of the Arab world, a vernacular form of Arabic is used by the public. In Tunisia, the dialect is Tunisian Arabic, which is closely related to the Maltese language.[25] There is also a small minority of speakers of Shelha, a Berber language.[26] French also plays a major role in the country, despite having no official status. It is widely used in education (e.g. as the language of instruction in the sciences in secondary school), the press, and in business. Most educated Tunisians are able to speak it. Many Tunisians, particularly those residing in large urban areas, readily mix Tunisian Arabic with French.” [source]

Oh now THAT is interesting. Look at this:

“Most authors who write novels or short stories prefer to write in standard Arabic or in French. In some cases, the dialogue in a novel will be in Tunisian Arabic, but the main narrative will be in standard Arabic. An exception is Hedi Balegh, who has published collections of Tunisian proverbs and translated The Little Prince into Tunisian Arabic.” [source]

RACHEL: The Little Prince! Also since you mentioned Charlotte speaking Korean. I decided to wikipedia Tunisia and Korea.

“Though Korea had a long history of trading contact with the Arab world by means of intermediaries, there were no recorded Korean visitors before 1959, when two Korean Muslims went to Mecca for the hajj. By 1977, migrants to Saudi Arabia alone composed nearly one-fifth of all registered emigration from South Korea, making it the third-most popular destination for emigrants.” [source]

“There are also Korean weekend schools in Mauritania (Nouadhibou), Morocco (Rabat and Agadir) and Tunisia (Tunis).” [source]

SUSAN: oooOOooo. I think Lost has more war and geography themes than we tend to give it credit for. The geography is just too good. So. Can we talk about Abbadon as Walt now? Because I can’t decide if I’m really upset about how things went down. It was curious how he walked away [during the conversation between Locke & Walt].

RACHEL: It was but at the same time, he wasn’t involved in any of the conversations Locke had. He kept away for all of them.


SUSAN: But he never made a point of leaving any besides that one.

RACHEL: True. But if Abbadon is Walt - so he’s traveled from the future and has decided to just live in the past? At the same time as his younger self or does he go back and forth all the time for various lengths of time?

SUSAN: My guess is going back and forth. He knows when he needs to be present.

RACHEL: That’s possible. You know, I’m not sure if he’s really dead. I still think he’s going to come back somehow

SUSAN: I got that feeling too. I feel like he CAN’T die. Like.. he lives outside of our understanding of human life?

RACHEL: It seems that way. Especially he told Locke that he helps people get to where they need to be. I got this mystical vibe from that statement. I mean if Miles can talk to dead people and John can be brought back to life. Then they can do something about Abaddon.

SUSAN: That’s true. I hope we get an Abbadon episode. It seems he and Hawking are alike right? Is there some sort of secret order for these people?

RACHEL: Maybe? Abbadon, Hawking, Widmore, Ben, Alpert - they all seem connected or a part of something. My coworkers were saying how it felt like they were the “first class” or first round of leaders. But maybe Locke and the Oceanic 6 are supposed to take over. Like be their successors in a way.

SUSAN: Ohhh, that’s an interesting idea. Like they’re the ex-presidents.

RACHEL: Yes, I thought so too. But maybe they don’t want to be ex-presidents. Maybe they want to stay in control. Hence this war.

SUSAN: Elders vs. Youngins.

RACHEL: Right. Like the assumption so far has been a Ben vs. Widmore war. But maybe it’s more complicated than that.

SUSAN: I see that - it’s a little Heroe-ish though.

RACHEL: That’s true. New topic? What about the two new characters - Caesar and Ilana.

SUSAN: Caesar is obvious right? So now we’re alluding to Roman rulers.

RACHEL: Yes! There’s something strange about that character. He found the Dharma Station pretty quickly, took charge (right?), seemed to be looking for something AND hid that gun.


SUSAN: Caesar does seem to be up to something. There’s definitely more to his backstory. And I feel like, if they’re introducing new characters this late in the game, they must be worth something. Because with only a season and a half left, they can’t expect us to accept them as main characters and latch onto them. Maybe a Caesar of the past even.

RACHEL: Exactly! I think he’s another person connected to the island.

SUSAN: You know it just popped into my mind - Caesar was introduced in the same episode where Walt said he saw John surrounded by people who wanted to do him harm. Like Julius Caesar getting stabbed in the back by the people he trusted. I might be having a grasping at straws sort of day.

RACHEL: No, that’s a good point! I assumed the moment happened already (in the beginning of the episode) but they didn’t want to harm him at the time

SUSAN: So maybe their fear of the unknown that is Locke will stir desire to hurt him.

RACHEL: True. Off topic but I’m reading Lostpedia’s recap/notes on the episode and I didn’t catch this - “Caesar finds Faraday’s map to the Tempest and a page of his journal.” I noticed he found something but I didn’t realize it was that. Why would Faraday leave it there?


SUSAN: Whoa, how did we miss that? Me neither. So then Faraday has been in the past and worked there? Well, we know he’s been in the past.

RACHEL: Yes, along with Jin who was wearing a Dharma outfit. So I assumed that when the plane landed, they were in that time but maybe they’re not?

SUSAN: Okay if the others time jumped.. This only makes sense if Sun also time jumped. But the people said the pilot left with a woman on the boat. I assumed the woman to be Sun. Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid (and even though we haven’t seen him) did. Even if Ben and Lapidus are exempt because they weren’t the Oceanic Six. Why Sun? Unless the woman wasn’t Sun. Now I’ve just gotten myself in a jumble.

RACHEL: I think the woman was Sun too. Because only Sun and Lapidus would know where they are. But yes, what about Sayid? Wouldn’t he have gone with them? But I see what you’re saying. They (the original people) should have all jumped to the same time together.

SUSAN: Yes I think either they all jumped or.. Sun and Lapidus are special. And Ben.

RACHEL: I think they all jumped except the station that they were in looked abadoned.. and if they were in the Dharma Initiative time, it probably wouldn’t look that way. Another good question Lostpedia brings up - If Charles was leader for 30 years would this mean that Penelope was born/conceived on the island?

SUSAN: Must be, right? Or else she’d be about 10 years old. But wait, how can she be from the island and no know?

RACHEL: Exactly! Unless Widmore led a double life - one on the island and one off of it. Because they mentioned that certain people had that privilege .. of being able to leave the island.

SUSAN: Yes like Ben did and Richard Alpert.

RACHEL: Interesting. That sort of supports the theory that Widmore is Faraday’s father. Maybe he had a life with Ellie (or whoever) on the island and had Faraday. And another life off the island with Penelope’s mother.

SUSAN: Not a bad conclusion!

RACHEL: Yes because them being full siblings doesn’t seem possible. But half? I could see that.

SUSAN: Yes, definitely possible. Although I have to say here - I’m STILL not convinced she’s Faraday’s mother. I want there to be something there

RACHEL: Yes I think there’s a chance that she might not be his mother. So, any other topics?

SUSAN: We got through most! Good talk today!

Pictures courtesy of: Lost-Media.com